[lugm.org] Upcoming meetup

selven pcthegreat at gmail.com
Mon Jul 28 16:29:09 UTC 2014 

On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Nishal Goburdhan <ndg at ieee.org> wrote:

> On 28 Jul 2014, at 10:54 AM, selven <pcthegreat at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > :) Replied since it is you, as i thought i already left this discussion
> since a long time ago! Not interested, not motivated.
>
> and. i think the last few words in the phrase above made my point :-(
>
which point?

>
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Nishal Goburdhan <ndg at ieee.org> wrote:
> > On 01 Jun 2014, at 8:21 PM, selven <pcthegreat at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > And yes, very little recognition is given on the island for people who
> volunteer their time for opensource.
> >
> > the nature of being a volunteer [1]  is that you don't need, or ask for
> credit afterwards, eh?  :-)
> >
> > In any form of volunteering, there needs to be some forms of incentives,
> an example, logan's contribution to the opensource mostly attracted flames
> rather than 'hey gj'.    Just my opinion, you are free to disregard and
> believe all is fine and beautiful.
>
> sure, but i don't think logan/ajay/sm/whomever is motivated (or
> de-motived) by a random sampling of people saying "gj" - or not.  i can't
> claim to speak for them.
> i'm guessing most here are familiar with maslowe's hierachy of needs;
>  well, where do you think volunteerism fits in there ?
>
>
> am unfamiliar with Maslowe's hierarchy of needs, yet i am guessing you
mean needs will dictate where volunteerism moves to, is that what you meant?


> > > But still if we start giving out free consultancy to CORPORATES, at
> some point why would they feel the need to hire IT staffs? This is
> something that will be denigrating to IT people.
> >
> > i think you misunderstand the difference between volunteering some
> clueful suggestions, and offering to perform an IT overhaul...i volunteer
> suggestions to "corporates" all the time.  i see it as my responsibility,
> as a user of the internet.  don't you report things that don't work?  do
> you expect to be thanked/remunerated for doing that?  it's the same concept
> really  - volunteer suggestions, and some practical advice on how to fix
> it, and leave it to them to sort out the rest.
> > it's when you _make the offer to fix it_, that you start cutting into
> their internal IT staff time.  pointing out things that are Just Plain
> Wrong is, just being polite.  at best, they take your voluntary suggestions
> to heart.  at worst, they ignore you, and you can continue snickering
> behind your $favourite_beverage about how you know more than they do.
>  c'est la vie.
> >
> > I think you haven't been following this whole defimedia obsession. As a
> user, one's responsibility is to constantly RANT about how crappy a service
> is, and as an Advanced IT user, one's responsibility is to constantly RANT
> using factual metrics.
> > But that's doesn't mean one should rant and propose solutions. If they
> don't want to invest in getting an analyst, despite getting user rants, it
> means they don't care about their users. If despite getting valuable
> metrics from advanced users, well then just too bad, people cannot and
> should not come into your office and shove proper procedures to you.
>
> ok.  i guess this is where our paths diverge.
> i suspect that a complaint, backed by intelligence data, is met much
> better than just a "ZoMG, u sux0rz!!"  type complaint on a forum somewhere.
>  ymmv.
> and if they ignore you enough, then, simply vote with your wallet.  (/hi
> SM, who has heard me say this many, many times!).
> and tell everyone you know why.  MU is small enough for it to matter :-)
>
>
> as you said it, you suspect, your are not sure about it.
Complaint backed by intellgence data is met much better much better than
just ZoMG'.. hmm (I've always wonderred what the Z means, anyways..).. the
ZoMG probably reflects the intelligence level, acceptance level of the
users in question i believe, and what guarantees me complaint directed to a
supposedly qualified body will not be met with more bureaucratic hurdles
and immature replies? (I'll blame corruption in the recruitment process in
various sectors that goes around here in this).

I don't fight wars which are already lost by probability.

> > Analogy, A carpenter might decide to create new ways to make a kind of
> furniture, he might even be willing to teach carpenters the know how, but
> it would be very weird if he starts dedicating his time giving great
> furniture for free to MCB because MCB has shitty furniture for example.
> >
> > that seems quite incomplete as an analogy.  because, the natural
> extension to this, is that MCB sees that this is actually a great piece of
> furniture, and then contracts the carpenter to make more of these.
> >
> > Nopes, that won't be a natural extension, that would be ONE possible
> scenario. Just like another possible scenario is, "play dead and see how
> much i can extort for free", but business is business, cutting down costs
> is the new trend.
>
> fair enough.  one possible scenario, that could lead to a potential great
> gain for your carpenter.
> i can think of quite a few more, btw.  :-)
> but i don't think that the central point of this discussion is related to
> that.
>
>
> There are lots of possibilities, but the problem is, should the
carpenter's quest for perfection of his art become lead to doom of
carpentry?

>
> > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 10:13 PM, selven <pcthegreat at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > dot mu really sux though. We can't havea dot mu hosted in bulgaria...
> >
> > do you mean the performance of .MU sucks for you?  it doesn't for me at
> home in JNB:
> > katala:~ nishal$ date
> > Sun Jul 27 23:45:48 SAST 2014
> > katala:~ nishal$ dig +nssearch mu | awk -F ' ' '{print $11, $12, $13,
> $14 }'
> > 2001:500:14:6010:ad::1 in 18 ms.
> > 204.61.216.10 in 19 ms.
> > 193.0.9.98 in 186 ms.
> > 2001:67c:e0::98 in 195 ms.
> > 195.253.64.5 in 210 ms.
> > 77.72.229.254 in 212 ms.
> > 2a01:5b0:4::5 in 220 ms.
> > 2a01:3f0:0:306::53 in 228 ms.
> >
> > .MU doesn't sucks for you... awesome, you live in JNB right. (personally
> even in your example, too much latency )
>
> not really;  18ms to the name-server here in JNB, over my home-wifi, and
> VDSL, is great.
> if you can make light move faster, then i have a business proposal for
> you!!    :-)
> but, read more below.  i think you've missed my point...
>
>
> :) I don't know the distance you live from that point. I'll still stick
with 18ms is a lot. But in your case maybe there's a huge distance in
between, but hey, did you see the awesomeness of ours not so close to even
18 ms is it :p ?


> > Doesn't seem logical for someone living in Mauritius to have this much
> latency:
> > dig +nssearch mu
> > SOA udns1.tld.mu. hostmaster.nic.mu. 2014072822 21600 3600 604800 86400
> from server 193.0.9.98 in 221 ms.
> > SOA udns1.tld.mu. hostmaster.nic.mu. 2014072822 21600 3600 604800 86400
> from server 204.61.216.10 in 296 ms.
> > SOA udns1.tld.mu. hostmaster.nic.mu. 2014072822 21600 3600 604800 86400
> from server 77.72.229.254 in 310 ms.
> > SOA udns1.tld.mu. hostmaster.nic.mu. 2014072822 21600 3600 604800 86400
> from server 195.253.64.5 in 401 ms.
> > ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
> >
> > I don't know, do you see the above output as Awesome when you are
> actually on THE island that the dot mu is supposed to represent?
>
> i agree that's it's not great for people in MU.  but you seem to have
> completed ignored what i wrote below ....so,  again - read (in particular
> the questions) below :-)
>
>
> I did ignore the question on purpose, Like i said, I don't fight wars that
> are already lost. Who will host? Who will maintain? Who will be take
> responsibility? It is not like this problem is new and that people hasn't
> been discussing about it for years.
>


> > a quick look at the ns-set for this, tells me that this (.MU) is pretty
> well anycast.  there are some well known operators there.  perhaps you have
> a problem with _how_ and _where_ this is anycast, since it seems (from my
> limited network view) that there isn't a node inside mauritius.  so, imho,
> a more correct question should be:  why is it that, of the four (3) anycast
> providers that are carrying .MU, none of them are present on-island?   and,
> how can we change that?  after all, surely that's the most logical place to
> be, and if it's anycast, well, it's really quite trivial to deploy a new
> node, right...?
> >
> > i can immediately see one way to improve this for me, in JNB, and i'll
> be writing to the relevant operator after this.  (no - i don't even resolve
> domains in .mu often at all, but, i can spot an (obvious to me) problem,
> and, i want to do the Right Thing, and will voluntarily report this to the
> operator in question...and no, that's not free consulting...it's called
> making my small portion of the internet more resilient!  which will
> hopefully make things better for other people too.  and we all profit.  qed)
> >
> > Reporting to the operator here will end you with a guy called Johnny, he
> will ask for your number, call you, to eventually tell you that nothing can
> be done. I can understand, since he doesn't own the ISP. As for fixing
> things here the proper way, i have given up all hopes, I sincerely believe
> people should start doing finding technical flaws around to exploit
> whatever they can to ease their life. Trying to make things good the right
> way will just waste too much time off their lifetime.
>
> perhaps i should have said "DNS operator" instead, and that would help you
> understand my point better.
> why do you need johnny (presumably MT) to anycast this?   from my reading
> of the ns-set, this has nothing to do with MT.  and they are 1 of just
> several organisations that are on island that could do the "needful" to
> help make this better for everyone.
> -- is it difficult to find the contact information for the DNS operators
> that are offering this for MU, (and, presumably, a lot of other TLDs) and
> ask them to come host a node in MU?
> -- do you think they would have a problem with that ?
> -- do you think it's difficult to do this  (anycast);  or to work with
> them, to get this done?
> (the generic "you" here, is the challenge to anyone who wants to make this
> better -- not you personally, selven)
>

Has everything to do with MT. Where do you host? Who will maintain? Who
will setup? Who will be responsible? Who will finance?
I think SM mentioned something about getting a node in MU, from what i see
in that dig, nothing much changed. I may be wrong though.
The difficulty will not lie in the tech part, but in the 'political'/
bureaucratic barrier and the resources to maintain.


>
> or, do you need help with any of this ?   (oh dear, that's me volunteering
> again...)
>
Me :D , I told you, am out of this..


>
> but hey - it's much easier to sit back and blame MT, isn't it?  :-)
> (for all their faults, MT is not to blame here.  you could argue that the
> tech contacts for .MU _should_ have gotten at least one server on-island,
> but, there's an equally strong (perhaps stronger) argument for these being
> globally spread, in a resilient manner, amongst so manner anycast
> operators.  what wrong (if it hasn't been obvious to you yet,) is that none
> of these global anycast operators have a node in MU.  so, i refer you to my
> questions above...and add a new one:
> -- what's stopping you from working to get this done, today ?
>
> i mean - surely the benefit is tangible enough to everyone here, right?
>


Just for your information, this is not ZA, we don't even have local ISP
peering together the way things are, we should setup not one server, but
get someone to buy connection from all major ISPs then host such service
there. Remember, MT to Emtel goes through london :p. All of these costs in
terms of money and in terms of location and people. Then one can wonder,
dafuq, if we do this, then those ISPs who were not willing to help when
asked are going to benefit as their user base is going to be happy,
indirectly the ISPs will be happy despite being against any such project.


>
>
> > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Keshwarsingh Nadan <
> keshwarsingh.nadan at servihoo.net> wrote:
> > > Blah blah blah & blah. The LUGM mailing list is not the proper list to
> discuss about slowness of whatever site.
> >
> > true.  it's probably the wrong place to pick on _a_ particular website.
>  but, if in the process of doing that, some people that aren't as familiar
> in the relevant technologies as you might be, learn something, then isn't
> that a good thing, and, in itself, fulfilling a core objective of the lugm?
>  i am not an application person, but the post earlier on was interesting
> enough for me to bookmark to read up about later.  so, thank you to the
> poster!
> >
> > > @S Moonesamy ,sorry, that stinks. I highly appreciate your
> contribution to RFCs, but acting as a dumbass including your previous
> attempts in criticizing the .mu tld is simply a waste of time.
> >
> > i think i missed a post in this thread....
> > i've known SM to be obtuse at times  :-)  and, quite often very
> stubborn.  i've never known him to be a "dumbass" though.  at least not
> intentionaly.  and i'd disagree with you;  there are several things that
> _could_ be fixed w.r.t .MU that can only come out of constructive
> criticism.  if not from you (the informed locals), then where from ... ?
> >
> > --n.
> >
> > [1]  verb [ no obj. ]
> > freely offer to do something: he volunteered for the job | [ with
> infinitive ] : I rashly volunteered to be a contestant.
> > • [ with obj. ] offer (help): he volunteered his services as a driver
> for the convoy.
> > • [ reporting verb ] say or suggest something without being asked: [
> with obj. ] :it never paid to volunteer information | [ with direct speech
> ] : “Her name's Louise,” Christina volunteered.
> > • work for an organization without being paid.
> > • [ with obj. ] commit (someone) to a particular undertaking, typically
> without consulting them: he was volunteered for parachute training by
> friends.
> >
> > Volunteering is an act based purely on selfishness :) even if it might
> seem to be a selfless act.
> > Interestingly, the researchers have also found that people who have more
> seemingly "selfish" motivations--esteem enhancement, personal development
> and understanding--are more likely to stick with a volunteering
> organization longer than people with more "other focused" motivations, such
> as values, according to Omoto.
> > http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec06/helping.aspx
> > Humans needs incentives, otherwise we wouldn't have such a nice dopamine
> system.
>
>
> and, yet again, i refer you to maslowe's pyramid, and ask you:  "where do
> you think volunteerism fits".   that should be fairly obvious;  it's self
> actualisation.
> and yes, the sense of personal achievement helps!
> so, do i get a kick of out helping out someone, and seeing the good that
> it does for them?   absolutely!
> do i feel "good" about it?   (ie.  my "selfish" benefit from doing
> "selfless" work.).  you bet!!
>

Yes :) This is what i meant by volunteerism isn't about selflessness, and
this varies from person to person.

>
> is this a requirement up front, for me to offer assistance?   absolutely
> not
> (and, how can it be, when you don't know _upfront_ whether, or not, the
> time you invest in something is going to work out, to add benefit to that
> particular project!)
>

?

>
> again, ymmv.
>
> --n.
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